Blackened and Burnt(out) Transcript
René Dillard and Alisha Woodson
R: Hi!
A: Hello!
R: Welcome to Blackened and Burnt(out) my name is René DIllard
A: And I’m Alisha Woodson
R: And we’re just gonna have a quick dialogue because we are so absolutely irritated
A: Yeah, well I’m always irritated, it’s fine, not just about discipline disparities and exclusionary discipline but just life in general
R: In general, all the time. Okay so, I’ll go ahead and ask you something
A: Sure
R: Alright, so, my first question for you Alisha..so can you tell me a little about what drove you to this Practicum topic
A: Yes, so, and this will be in my portfolio I think in more depth since we don’t have a lot of time today to talk about it but I think the most important thing is well it’s two parts. 1 my own um issues with discipline when I was growing up in public schools and 2 when I became a teacher for Teach For America and when I taught my first primarily black class and the ways that I saw the discipline that I was given reflected upon them and the ways that I saw myself really like, contributing to the oppression against my students in that I was allowing them to be disciplined in ways that were exclusionary and that were suspensions not expulsions but definitely suspension I had kids out multiple times during the year and that was definitely my fault because I wasn’t communicating well with them and I wasn’t understanding them despite being of the same background
R: Something i think that’s really interesting about that um, when I was teaching and again at a primarily african american low-income school um a lot of times white teachers would bring children to me and say “I don’t know what to do with them can you handle it?” what do you think about that?
A: Oh I experienced the same thing specifically at my charter school. There was a 50/50 split of black staff at my charter school and then I would say it was more diverse than like public school. So, yeah same thing. Kids from different grades were coming like kindergarteners were walking up the stairs for me to discipline them for me to sit them in the corner because I was able to cultivate relationships with them once I checked my own privilege and my own bias and the way that I was feeding into this oppression. I felt like I was able to create better relationships with these kids and with our students and that’s why I was able to get through to them better than their teachers were um which I think is like the main problem right? It’s all communication breakdown and it’s all checking yourself and being humble rather than just assuming that it’s the child’s fault.
What about you? Why did you choose your portfolio topic and what is your topic?
R: Um so, something…I’m looking at something that’s really nuanced I think. So, my experience this summer, I worked at a professional education organization so they work with schools and it’s an organization that has a lot of pull and influence in schools. We’re in and out of schools. So you can kind of put it in the same category as a nonprofit or maybe a for profit educational organization like nashville public education foundation. So I had a really interesting experience where I started to think about looking beyond diversity in the teaching profession and looking at diversity and representation in all of those kind of peripheral organizations that have um push and pull at schools or push into schools um so nashville does a lot of like, having people come in and serve as mentors for students um so there’s tons of like, non profit organizations that offer these partnerships with Nashville schools. So I started to think about, ok well, not only does teaching staff need to be diverse, but also the boards of these organizations, the admin of these organizations, the employees right? Nashville is such an interesting city because there’s over 100 languages spoken in Nashville schools, right, but if you look at the makeup of a lot of really prominent nonprofit organizations it’s mostly….caucasian.
A: You can say white people that’s fine
It’s mostly white people
R: It’s just white. It’s a lot of really…white people
A: Yeah
Yeah that’s really interesting actually. My cousin was just given a role as the “professional development” person at her christian private school in Florida which…primarily the student body is mixed but the staff is white. She’s the only um person of color and one of two women on the leadership team. Which are all like, older white men who have like attended the school, and they have like a lot of issues with diversity and racial discrimination in the school so they gave her that position so she can like fix this and she’s like, I can’t fix all of this. But at the same time she was like, I felt Like i had to take the job because 1. If i’m not going to do it nobody’s going to do and also like, I’m the only person of color on the leadership team and she said that from going from the classroom to that team students look at her now like wow, I can be like you one day and she was like that’s the first time i’ve ever felt that way so I thought that was really cool even though they’re basically asking her to fix like all their racial issues.
R: I mean like you work at an education policy focused organization in the city. What kind of diversity do you see there?
A: Me and my boss. I mean there…it’s like half…probably a little bit more than half women, but they’re all white. At least like, they could pass as white. And then my boss and I are the only two brown women. There’s no black and brown males. Um.
R: That’s really interesting
A: But then we sit there and advocate for black and brown males and females
R: I mean diversity in the classroom in Nashville is huge right now. It’s like a buzzword but they’re not really doing anything
A: Right, and that’s like why I think representation is interesting as well. Because i’m like, what’s the…which I think there is a difference between representation and diversity in that like, I’ve seen representatives of my race or my gender but if they’re not trained, or if they’re given impossible tasks like my cousin, then they seem like they fall short of other people’s expectations. And then it’s like, okay well you’re there, but you’re not being effective and then you’re just feeding into this stereotype that’s put on you.
R: Yeah. they talk a lot about pipeline let’s go back to that. I have a question for you. So, have you…last year you and I went to a lunch with Dr. Monique Morris.
A: Yes.
R: And so she’s written tons of books and um, I just finished “Pushout” and I know that the university is doing a book club with pushout which is pretty cool and interesting. You get free books you get like a copy of the book for free. So there’s been so much rhetoric about the criminalization of black boys in schools we’re always talking about the demonization of black boys particularly at the elementary level. Um, teachers just “we don’t know what to do!”. But this book really looks at um, the criminalization of black girls and how that reverberates and has repercussions in communities. So, thinking about that does that kind of lend itself to what you’re looking at in your practicum or are you kinds of examining those issues.
A: Umm. I will say that I’m primarily focusing on black and brown males. I do completely agree that black and brown females specifically black females are um…obviously they’re in the same bucket.
R: Yeah
A: And they’re dealing with the same issues. And a lot of that too there’s research to show that white female teachers will..I don’t think this is the right word, but it’s basically like they’ll masculate especially dark skinned black girls and they’ll treat them like little boys. I think that’s a link to that um that is important to look at. Cause its like, why do you not see this little girl as a little girl and why do you associate her with her black brother counterpart. Um, and so I do think that it’s definitely an issue, it’s just like…but they are two different issues even though they’re the same category. Um, and I think it’s dangerous a dangerous like model I guess to try and connect them too much. Because whats gonna work in fixing teacher communication and partnership and relationships with black boys is not gonna be the same with black girls. Cause you know they give attitude, we you know, suck our teeth and we..
R: We’re abrasive
A: Yeah x, y, and z. And a lot of times with black boys they’re just afraid of them. No matter what their age. Yeah so black girls get masculated and black boys get…their age…it doesn’t matter they could be 6 they get treated like they’re 18. And it’s very very strange.
R: I mean I think about a lot of times that white people just assume that little colored kids are so hard.
A: Yeah
R: That everything is so tough and they’re just so abrasive and so um I don’t know if the word I wanna use is like mature for their age but…
A: It’’s like gritty and i think that that word especially the organization that I was a part of that got me into teaching. I think that they used that word a lot grit and resilience. I think those are great words but those are not words to be celebrated when you’re talking about a child who doesn’t have food to go home to oh but you’re gritty so you can score really high on your TN ready scores because you don’t eat at night. You can’t really associate that it’s like I hate the rhetoric around that and I don’t think that it’s great. Um and I think that we use that to justify why we can treat them like those are high expectations but it’s really not.
R: Yeah
A: Yeah
PART II
A: Um i guess since we’re kinda talking about root causes of issues of disciplining students. What are like the root causes for why there’s a lack of representation do you think?
R: So white people are always talking about there being some kind of issue with pipeline, right, that there’s not enough black and brown people matriculating through university, going on to graduate school and so, we just don’t have enough people to pull from but I think like that kind of traces all the way back to elementary school um a lack of opportunities and a lack of access in treating children like they will never achieve some kind of level so we’re not even gonna try. Um, I think that there are tons of people in I mean we’re in the pipeline, but like, didn’t we end up in positions where we can’t grown and we can’t flourish and we’re stifled before we get to that point to serve on a board, a PENCIL foundation or to
A: Or you’re looked over like, for way later in your life
R: Yeah
A: So it’s like, stick it out for 30 years where someone else has to stick it out for 5. I’ve seen that with my mom a lot because my mom’s in a STEM field she’s an aerospace designer and it’s taken her what 30 years now to finally get to the point where they’re mentoring her to be the head manager. You know and it’s like this lady
R: If this were a white person
A: Yeah, exactly. Especially if she was a white male, 3 years tops, right. And so…and I always tell her you have so much power in that and you’ve gotta accept these roles and you’ve gotta go to the next level because of representation and because I know that my mom knows the substance and content behind it. Um yea. That’s a really interesting point. I do think that that’s like a huge issue is that it starts all the way back with kids in our schools
R: And I think with representation it’s important there has to be an intentionality with engagement. Engagement is not just having people in the room so you can check off some kind of box, engagement is involving people in the process, right. There are organizations in nashville that are intentionally trying to put diverse people in really good productive positions. But most of what I’m seeing in the city is that they’re just they’re using diversity as something- it’s a buzzword they’re not actually…um there’s no intentionality behind it. Um. the district just got a $35,000 diversity planning initiative grant. Um. 35000 dollars doesn’t really give them the capacity to promote diversity. 35,000 doesn’t get them to every HBCU in the nation to recruit diverse teachers, and Nashville already has a problem. They started the school year 120 teachers short. And you know, coming from my district, I know that there were so many capable paraprofessionals of color that weren’t being groomed to become teachers.
A: Hmmm
R: It’s a whole pool of people
A: Who are in the pipeline
R: Who are in the pipeline
A: But we’re not investing in them
R: Yeah
A: Yeah, I definitely agree with diversity being like a guise for a lot of organizations and I think part of that too is like, white people have to do the work. So like you can’t just bring in diverse people and assume that they’re going to change the way that you think or change the environment or whatever because that’s just surface level. You also have to change the way that you think the way that you think about those people or you’re not going to want to invest in them, you’re not gonna wanna take time and partner with them on different projects. I think that it’s a white and people of color thing. And also looking at representation in different ways. Like for example, at our nonprofit you know in a rural community or looking at diversity in different ways so in a rural community they’re not going to have as many English learners for example but they’re recruiting like males for different things. And by English learners, i’m talking about like EPPs recruiting students who were once English language learners who are now T1’s-T4’s who could become teachers but they have like a 1% population of EL’s, but there’s 50% of the population males. That’s diversity too because in the teaching field all of us are women for the most part.
R: So, my last question for you would be is there a solution?
A: To….
R: I mean there’s no blanket solution to like
A: The pipeline issue?
R: No, no-okay so, restorative justice is something that a lot of school districts are implementing now. Do you see this as like a possible way of repairing some of these issues?
A: So it has to be coupled with what I was just talking about, cultural competency training. And really just like, self-exploration and curiosity that you have to do in order to eliminate biases that you have, microaggressions that you have that you don’t know that you have, because they’re internalized and you..and that’s the thing about a microaggression right. it’s …every day; it’s commonplace. And a lot of times you don’t even know you’re doing it.
R: it’s so small it just chips away
A: Right but they’re hostile and they’re…and that’s the thing…you’re never gonna have a good relationship whether it’s in the workplace or with students or whatever. Cause you can do restorative justice with adults as well…unless both parties are doing the work. So, I think that that is I don’t think it’s ever going to work because like I said it will always be surface relationships unless you’re saying “why did I punish that kid that way?” “Why did I have that reaction?” “Why did I let that escalate?” “What did I do as a part of the problem here?” because it’s not always the kid like that’s the thing, yeah kids make mistakes and they do terrible things sometimes, but the escalation that’s usually the adult.
R: Yeah, of for sure, yeah.
A: Yes. Um…
R: You can bounce that back off of me, whether I think there’s a solution.
A: IS there a solution?
R: Oh lord Jesus, help my people. What would Donna Ford say?
A: Donna Ford would literally say cultural competency training for whites.
R: I think also..I think something that where I’m working now…so I’m working at a non-profit that works in education. I think something that they’ve done really successfully in their hiring practices is A) They fill a position of color with a person of color and B) they look really creatively at resumes which I think is really interesting. So they don’t hire people who you look at their resume and they have this degree and this degree and this degree that like perfectly aligns with this posting. They look at people and they say this person has a degree in this field but it may have the potential to bring some kind of …add something creative to this position.
A: Ya, add value in a different way
R: Yeah so they’re pulling from different pipelines
A: That’s cool
R: Yeah and it’s been really successful I think so far because they’re bringing in new life new blood younger people and they’re diversifying both with color and gender. And with age. Um which is really cool.
A: That’s good
R: Yeah but this is just one area where I work all of the other areas are like old white people…so
A: Yeah i think that you said is like a good point and they’re doing that a lot with educator prep programs with admissions and it’s like…look at deposition data like look at, literally you can tell a lot from conversation but also look at them differently instead of just like GPAs and undergraduate or high school whatever
R: And to be really creative
A: Absolutely
R: Well I think that’s all we have time for today but it’s been great. Thanks for chatting with me
A: I do what I can.
R: Bye guys!
A: Bye!